Speculation: Sangerand, Antediluvian, etc.

[Ripper]

JW Says: Split from "Duality" thread.

I sincerely doubt the Sangerand is Willow, aside from the fact that Madrigan does not actually *posess* Willow.. As I mentioned <a href="http://www.jetwolf.com/wolfpack/viewtopic.php?t=1390">long ago</a>, Sangerand is actually Spanish for 'vampire'. Whether or not this is an actual vampire, or some artifact relating to them, I sincerely doubt this is Willow, or even Vamp Willow.

I have reread your comments, but I am not convinced that I am incorrect. If "sangerand" is indeed Spanish for vampire--and I do not doubt you, I simply could not confirm as such--then I believe it is only one possible interpretation of the word.

I have not had as much time as I would like to further research this however what appears to be a common theme in words much like this one is blood. "Sangre" in Spanish, "sangue" in Italian. This is also true of a vampire.

In reply to your comment about Madrigan not possessing Willow, I do not see where this is an issue, I must confess. I have searched all of the episodes to date and found only two references to "The Sangerand." The first was in "Fringes," which was the first appearance of Madrigan.

"The Sangerand?" the young man queried, his unblinking gaze never wavering.

She bowed her head again before answering. "Everything is falling into place," she assured him, her voice raspy and deferred. "We are expecting a report tomorrow evening. Once we have enough information about the organization, we can decide upon and proceed with the next phase."

The man nodded, pleased with her answer. "And they don't have a clue?"

"They are not in the least bit aware. They're trusting to the last."

The second appears in "Where the Heart is," and I feel it is our strongest indication of Willow perhaps being "The Sangerand":

"Find her," the baritone suddenly ordered in a tone that left no room for argument. "Kill her."

"What?" questioned Judith, unsure if she had heard correctly.

"Do it now."

Without a moment's further pause, the Slayer spun toward the entrance and strode out, leaving behind a conversation that continued to echo from the still-glowing mirror.

"You can't kill her," a new voice, this one feminine and authoritative, interjected.

"The decision is made," the baritone flatly stated with finality.

"But the Sangerand—"

The bass interrupted her quickly. "This will be a setback, nothing more," it assured, though its gravelly voice left much comfort to be desired. "But if she finds us, then it is we who will be nothing more."

It does not state for certain that the Sangerand is Willow, but it seems suspicious, as the concern for the Sangerand immediately follows a command to kill Willow. At the very least, it suggests that Willow is somehow connected to this Sangerand, and that her death would jeopardize some plan concerning it.

At no point in my review of these scenes did I find an indication that Madrigan possesses--or even desires to possess--the Sangerand. Consequently, I am not certain that his lack of possession of Willow can be submitted as evidence for or against this theory.

Very interesting ideed.

Dana, I eagerly await any further comments you may have on my review, and thank you both for your kind words.

[GregED]

You point out some interesting things, that I had not considered before. I also now realize that I was remembering the wrong thing: Robby said he 'posessed' the Antediluvian. Mads said no such thing about the Sangerand.

I have not had as much time as I would like to further research this however what appears to be a common theme in words much like this one is blood. "Sangre" in Spanish, "sangue" in Italian. This is also true of a vampire.

This was my mistake. I misinterpreted the language. It's not Spanish, or Italian: I suspect it's Romanian.

Where I came to this conclusion was from an obscure link to <a href="http://www.dracul.com/ACT2SCN2.htm">'Dracul:The Musical'</a>, making reference to Dant de Sange (Blood Dance):

MINION 1 :Sange

MINIONS 2 & 3 :Blood

MINION 1 :Eternitate

ALL :Eternity

Sangerand, setos de sange

Sleep in fire

Fire of blood - (REPEAT - from the top).

The quote is suggestive that the english is translation for the Romanian, except that, according to an online Romanian dictionary, 'setos de sange' actually means 'blood thirsty'; not 'sleep in fire' or 'fire of blood'.

So, we can infer that the Sangerand has something to do with blood. But the fact that it shows up as a word in 'Dracul' doesn't necessarily mean it has to do with vampires.

And that's assuming I even got the language right this time.

[Dana5140]

Okay, so I did find an online Romanian dictionary, and this is the only place where linguistically I got anything that seems to be close to a Buffy thing:

sânge

sn blood; (închegat) gore; sânge albastru blue blood; (a omorî) cu sânge rece (to kill) in cold-blooded, cold blood; donator de sânge blood donor; frate de sânge blood brother; (friptură) în sânge rare (steak)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
sângera

vt/vi to bleed
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sângeros

adj bloody, sanguinary; o luptă sângeroasă a bloody battle; (d cineva) bloodthirsty
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
sanguin

adj (sangvin) blood; (fig) sanguine

It seems that the closest translation we can find for Sangerand is "to bleed" or "the bleeder." I actually had the same site conjugate the word Sangere but no specific conjugative form came up with Sangerand; the closest was the present perfect form, sangeram. My sense therefore is that this is a word that was selected because it derives from the word blood, is in a vampire series and sounds cool. I may be wrong, but I think there may be no deeper meaning than giving the weapon a really cool name.

Also, as for Antidiluvian, exactly how are we spelling it? Because here is the word defined:

antediluvian \an-tih-duh-LOO-vee-uhn\, adjective:
1. Of or relating to the period before the Biblical flood.
2. Antiquated; from or belonging to a much earlier time.

noun:
1. One who lived before the Biblical flood.
2. A very old (or old-fashioned) person.

[DigiEmissary]

Antediluvian is also used to refer to Atlantis before it sunk.

[Dana5140]

True, but in the context of this episode and the Buffyverse, I would bet on it being related to an old one; that is, a primeval demon of some sort.

[Vanyel]

Or an old one; that is, a Ruth of some sort

Or did we cover that already? Not feeling too well or particularly clear right now.

[Ripper]

As I mentioned, I do believe that we have a new title, as discovered by Xander. "The Baani" is the marking on the orb pedestal, and it clearly has a reaction of some sort to Xander. What is perhaps most interesting is that only he is able to read the markings. To Hannah, they are indecipherable. I have not yet had time to try and find out what "The Baani" means, but it appears as though we have another mysterious designation. My instinctive reaction, given the facts and details at hand, is that this designation is attributed to Xander.

This becomes extremely interesting. Thus far we know that Tara is The Curat. I suspect that Willow is The Sangerand, and I now suspect that Xander is The Baani. If the latter is the case, it forces us to reevaluate these situations--at least as I perceive them. Before, when the only characters bestowed titles were Willow and Tara, it seemed quite natural--particularly in light of the fact that Madrigan clearly needs them to be connected for some purpose. I cannot work Xander into this trinity in any way that easily makes sense.

While this is a new question, I believe I may have pieced something together from our old information. From the beginning of the season, we know that Madrigan needed Robespierre for The Antediluvian. At some point, however, that ceased to be the case--something changed. I went back and reviewed the timeline for Madrigan in "The Chosen," and there is only one thing I can specifically locate which has altered for Madrigan: Tara's resurrection. More specifically, the point at which she forged her magical connection to Willow. Once this is accomplished, Madrigan's entire demenor toward Robespierre shifts. He even goes to far as to say to Robespierre that he is perhaps not as important as once thought.

When Madrigan speaks of finding another way to free the Antediluvian, I believe he is referring to Tara--either with or without Willow. I suspect this is The Curat's function--to release the Antediluvian.

[Dana5140]

But unless I am mistaken, Ripper, Madrigan does not know of the existence of the Curat- that was a title that Ruth mentioned to Quinn. Thus, how to explain that?

And Curat seems protective in its Latinate derivative: breastplate. And Ruth seemed to think this Curat was a good thing.

The Baani, makes me think of Mr. Banan for some reason. I could also perhaps consider the fact that there was once a powerful weapon made of the Scooby essence, and perhaps in doing so the superpowered Buffy altered some fabric of the universe, and Madrigan is atempting to recreate it for an evil purpose?

[GregED]

Okay...since it seems clear the title may be important, I tried looking it up. The King James Bible has this definition:

"Baani," head of a family, many of whom had married foreign wives

Not very useful or making sense. The word also turns up in many other places in seemingly Indian or Pakistani culture (not sure which one). One particular site, which was mostly in some other language, had this peculiar reference:

OR, Kabiranca doha:
Prabhu shobha nahi jaaye bakhani
Gira anayan, nayan bin baani

translation: The beauty of the Lord cannot be described because the eyes have no speech/tongue and the tongue lacks eyes.

The suggestion here, comparing words to translation, is that baani means 'tongue'. In other web pages, while there is no direct translation, the implication is that a Baani (referred to as a title or occupation) has something to do with speaking/singing. That implication might be a little more applicable.

What I don't understand is why Xander would be relevant at all to Mads...

[Ripper]

But unless I am mistaken, Ripper, Madrigan does not know of the existence of the Curat- that was a title that Ruth mentioned to Quinn. Thus, how to explain that?

Simply that we do not yet know exactly what Madrigan does and does not have knowledge of. He clearly possesses great insight into many things--Willow and Tara's lives in particular. He needed her back for some purpose we do not yet understand...it seems as likely to be because she is The Curat as anything else. Who is to say that Ruth alone has this knowledge?

And Curat seems protective in its Latinate derivative: breastplate. And Ruth seemed to think this Curat was a good thing.

Did she, however? There was great sadness when she spoke of Tara.

In regards to "The Curat" meaning "breastplate," while I believe this is one possibility, I do not think we should be so restrictive in assuming we have already uncovered a solution. I have not myself, but has anyone done any researching into other language possibilities?

What I don't understand is why Xander would be relevant at all to Mads...

I agree, the inclusion of Xander into the group makes no sense that I can yet glean. Regardless of this, I cannot help but think this is the case. The attending mage made it quite clear Madrigan was its creator and it was to perform some specific function. I assume it was to act as a beacon for the Scoobies, but perhaps its purpose was twofold.

[Dana5140]

Rip, while I know that absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, there has been nothing in the episodes to suggest that Madrigan knows of the Curat, so I am basing my comment only on what can be read and what we know. Right now, we have no evidence that Mads knows of the Curat. Sure, he might, but we don't know it.

As for Ruth, I queried Jet way back about that particular scene, where she seems sad, and while I do not recall exactly what Jet said, the impression I remember was that there could be interpretationso f her sadness that did not mean a particular threat to Tara. Frankly, I can see no real reason for Jet to bring Tara back only to sacrifice her again- but I can see a lot of reasons how Jet makes Tara into her own person for the Scoobs, a person beyond being Willow's appendage.

The inclusion of Xander would fit in with my theory that somehow Mads is recreating the Superbuffy from Primeval, but perhaps we did not see all we did in hands, mind, heart, etc. If Willow is the Sangerand, and Xander the Baabi, there is still Buffy herself to consider as well as Giles.

Greb, if you go back to your foreign quote, you will see that Baani means eyes, not tongue- the derivative of tongue in your quote is nayan. This is interesting now, isn't it, given that Xander is the one who sees. We know Mads knows a whole lot about the Scoobies so he would certainly know of the incident with Dawn, and the fight with Caleb.

Please, someone help me with remembering what the SCoobs were in the superbuffy, who was what: manus, etc. See if we can correlate this to the current sitch.

And remember, Mads does not know a few things: Dawn's power, for example. The fight is not over, folks....

[Blind Cadria]

I know this one! Buffy was Manus the hand, Willow was Spiritus the spirit, Xander was Animus the heart, and Giles was Sophus the mind.

Dana, I think you're looking for a rehash of somehting we've already seen, but I don't think that's how JW is going. I'm betting Mads is up to nogood, but it's newnogood. I'm siding with Ripper on this one because he's such a smart cookie. We don't know that Mads knows about the Curat, but we don't know he doesn't know either.

If Mads knew about the Sangurand (which he does) and the Antediluvian (which he does) and the Baani (which he probably does since he made the orb) then dollars to donuts he knows about the Curat too- especially since he's the one who brought Tara back.

Now I want donuts!

[Dana5140]

No donuts. Bagels!

Still got no proof that Mads knows about the Curat.... and of course, I do think that Mads is up to a new no good, but simply could not rule out the chance of looking at the Super Buffy- but with your help here in clarifying what each person was, I'm discarding that idea.


We've got eyes, blood, an old one and a breastplate- not much to go one, and damn that jet for making us wait 4 months before we even begin to see the answer.

[GregED]

Greb, if you go back to your foreign quote, you will see that Baani means eyes, not tongue- the derivative of tongue in your quote is nayan. This is interesting now, isn't it, given that Xander is the one who sees. We know Mads knows a whole lot about the Scoobies so he would certainly know of the incident with Dawn, and the fight with Caleb.

I'm going to assume you mean me, and not some new Wolf cub named Greb.

You should keep in mind, however, that the translation above does not necessarily synch up with each word in the exact order they are written. Different languages have different grammar (spanish is a good example of this). Just because Baani is the last word in the first sentence, and 'eyes' is the last word in the translation, does not mean baani=eyes. I'm not discounting your interpretation, I'm just not sure that it's correct yet, without any further proof...

Your words do bring to mind the story of Odin, and how he sacrificed one of his far-seeing eyes for wisdom. Could it be that Xander losing one of his eyes had more of an affect that we realized? And could this also mean that if Xander tried to regrow the eye Caleb destroyed, that he might lose whatever sight allowed him to read the markings on the sphere? Now that would make for an interesting story...if Xander's choice to regrow his eye results in ramifications for the Scoobies...or worse, if he has to make the choice to lose his eye after it was healed.

Of course, at the moment, just rambling. Don't know anything for sure. But it does make one think...

-Greg

[Dana5140]

Your new name is Greb.

In the African Zarma language, here is the definition of "Baani."

baani samey: just fine [reply to greeting questions] (1)

baani, baano: health [of the body]; peace [of the mind or personality] (noun; 2)

From the website Bibletools.com:

Baani
(From International Standard Bible Encyclopedia) ba'-a-ni (A, Baani; B, Baanei; the King James Version Maani =Bani [Ezra 10:34]): The descendants of Baani put away their "strange wives" (1 Esdras 9:34).

I found this comment on a punjabi website:

Thus, all the Baani of the six Satgurus in the Ad-Granth Sahib is concerning "soul" and "soul" only and nothing for "flesh", "body" or "TANN". The WARAN of Bhai Gurdass Ji were pertaining to the qualities of castes or applied to TANN and, therefore, they were not included. In short, Ad-Granth has PAKKI BAANI and no KACHI BAANI, which is the realm of Brahmin "gurus".

And on a sikh site:

As I grew up, in Ludhiana and studying in a Convent school there, my Sikhi pyaar got less and less. I was never taught anything about baani and did not know any baani at all. The schools in India are designed to make a person non believer in any religion. Sikhi was never discussed at school and none of the students I knew in school had any interest in Sikhi or any other dharam.

All of which is terribly not enlightening, and is making Jet sit there at home laughing her ass off at our pathetic attempts to understand her convoluted plotlines.